For the Matrix... :)

HELL FUCKING YEAH

woo hoo! I'm DOWN. please can I see it NOW!!!!???

okay I'll wait.

:bugeye:

I'm seeing it first thing Wednesday at noon! Hell muthafukkn' yeah!

pah! I am going to have to wake up at 6:30am to go see it at 9. First showing...and in IMAX! WOOT!

haha....did you all already forget about the turd that went by the name of matrix reloaded?

Think I'll just wait till the first wave has gone... little there is that irritates me more than a cinema filled with people shouting, clapping and commenting on the blindingly obvious.

Although, seeing it in an IMAX theatre would more than compensate for the inconvenience... do we have one of those in Europe?

dunno...but the screen in tennispalatsi in helsinki is quite big (700+ seats).

Doh! There is one at 40 minutes travelling distance from Amsterdam, but it only shows national geographic style documentaries...

There are three in the UK: London, Bradford & Manchester. :rolleyes:

http://www.imax.com/

mouse , travel to berlin ;)
but i guess the film won´t be in dutch :D

I enjoy the film for the computer concept and the intense action sequences, but the theme smacks of liberalism (especially the obvious anti-White statements.)

"anti-White"?

I don't think there are obvious anti-white themes as I did not notice them.

That is not fair, in IMAX, really?
Just saw Reloaded on video a few days ago, so I must watch it again before seeing this one.
It's pretty complicated philosophy that they have managed to drag into an actionmovie like that. How many are really getting it? I'm hoping they have not decided to have less philosophy and more action in this one, but rather the other way around.

To echo wesmorris- anti- white?

When the creator of the matrix and the hero and heroine are both white? I was wondering about a lack of hispanic characters myself.

And dont diss liberals, without them you likely wouldnt be here. You'd have been squelched long ago.

Hey Biggles, you call yourself that because youve read most of the books or you liked the film or is it your real name?

Originally posted by Yes
That is not fair, in IMAX, really?
Just saw Reloaded on video a few days ago, so I must watch it again before seeing this one.
It's pretty complicated philosophy that they have managed to drag into an actionmovie like that. How many are really getting it? I'm hoping they have not decided to have less philosophy and more action in this one, but rather the other way around.

What philosophy? The only think that the Matrix brings to the table is some little pop-philosophy quips that it uses and then disposes of as it needs 'em. The Matrix is not a DEEP movie, it's not a "Smart" film. If you think it is either of these, it's time for you to go out and get a fucking education, or at least rent some better movies for gods sake.

If you're not going spacificaly for the kung-fu and gun play I honestly don't know what's wrong with you :p

Originally posted by and2000x
I enjoy the film for the computer concept and the intense action sequences, but the theme smacks of liberalism (especially the obvious anti-White statements.)

What anti-white statements exactly? Both neo and trinity are white, that spirtual leader guy is white, there are white people on their little Zion councel, and I sure as hell can't remember any racial issues in the film that go beyond human and machine.

Let me guess, you're just upset becaues zion is full of minorities, right? What a desperate future it must indeed be when the last surviving free humans are mixed pretty equaly! Neo will save humanity from the machines, but who will save the white-race from being bred out?! haha.

Originally posted by testifypah! I am going to have to wake up at 6:30am to go see it at 9. First showing...and in IMAX! WOOT!

Damn you!!

Wish I didn't have school Tomorrow. I'll be writing a chem test while you wander aimlessly through Chinook...

Originally posted by Mystech
What philosophy?

Philosophy is where you find it. The movie can be as deep or as shallow as the individual viewing it dont' you think? Hmmm.

Does that mean you're shallow?

The Matrix is a metaphor for African Slavery:

http://www.missouri.edu/~egc8c7/Matrixpaper.doc

Let me guess, you're just upset becaues zion is full of minorities, right? What a desperate future it must indeed be when the last surviving free humans are mixed pretty equaly! Neo will save humanity from the machines, but who will save the white-race from being bred out?! haha.

There was a five minute African dance sequence!!!
Take another look at the plot. I wasn't upset by minorities in the film at all, Morpheus was one of my favorite characters. However, I wouldn't put it above the creators of the film: they enjoy toying with people's minds, as seen in their use of the Bible as story fodder. Where do the agents eat? That's right...at fine French food restaraunts.

Originally posted by wesmorris
Philosophy is where you find it. The movie can be as deep or as shallow as the individual viewing it dont' you think? Hmmm.

Does that mean you're shallow?

If you end up reading something into it that the writer never meant to put there, then I think you're digging too deep. The closest thing to a philosophy in the matrix is a general theme of mind over matter, and rebellion against authority. . . not really that deep at all.

/The Matrix is a metaphor for African Slavery:

Only if you think it is.

/There was a five minute African dance sequence!!!

Only if you think it was. There was dancing but to call it african is your choice, not the choice of the artists.

/Take another look at the plot. I wasn't upset by minorities in the film at all, Morpheus was one of my favorite characters.

How tolerant of you.

/However, I wouldn't put it above the creators of the film: they enjoy toying with people's minds, as seen in their use of the Bible as story fodder.

If you allow them to "toy with your mind" it is YOUR fault. You have no evidence that it was their intent unless you think attempts to be "thought provoking" and is equivalent to messing with your mind. If your mind has a problem being provoked to think, who do you think has a problem, or can you provoke your mind to fathom the question?

How do you see the bible as story fodder?

/Where do the agents eat?

The agents are computer programs. They don't eat. The computer program at that restraunt explained exactly why he chose french. Further association is your own bias.

/That's right...at fine French food restaraunts.

You say that as it if is significant. It is, but only in that it is telling of your inability to understand things.

Originally posted by and2000x
The Matrix is a metaphor for African Slavery:
There was a five minute African dance sequence!!!


Well first off I don't think it's intended as a direct metaphor for anything, and it's certainly not allegory. Because the themes of oppression and fighting back are so vague, I certainly see how you could draw a few weak parallels to African Slavery, but I assure you that that's not the films intent, and I'd bet you good money that the Wachowski (sp?) brothers had absolutely no intent of making their trilogy a comment on African slavery.

As for your "African dance sequence", where I'm from we call that a rave. It's true that techno music with it's loud thumping beat resembles some sort of tribal music, and that raves themselves are derived heavily from this sort of activity, I think that scene was thrown in more to give the audience a bit of a reminder that all those people in Zion are people who once lived in our world. Hehe, African dance sequence indeed, honestly go talk to a youngster some time if you're that out of touch.

YOu could see it as a metaphor for white slavery. You could also see it as a metaphor for humans being enslaved by machines. PLus, the predominance of whites in many bad roles eg agents, could also be seen as a reflection of the predominance of whites in those roles anyhow.

Oh no, african dance! Whats wrong with people getting back to ancient times?

"However, I wouldn't put it above the creators of the film: they enjoy toying with people's minds, as seen in their use of the Bible as story fodder. "

Well, yeah. To put it bluntly, looks like theyve toyed with yours, and that of the author of that essay.
You could see it as nerd-dom goes mainstream as well. Remember, the mainstream absorbs and adapts minority stuff to itself.

If anything, the problem with the matrix is that it is all too obvious and open.

Originally posted by Mystech
If you end up reading something into it that the writer never meant to put there, then I think you're digging too deep. The closest thing to a philosophy in the matrix is a general theme of mind over matter, and rebellion against authority. . . not really that deep at all.

Your assessment is indicative of a shallow look at the movie, not that the movie is shallow.

Originally posted by wesmorris
/How do you see the bible as story fodder?


This is something I'd have to agree with. Though there really isn't any sort of direct theft from the bible, it is again applicable, and I believe that the Wachowskis (sp?) took a page here and there just to try to make the story more epic, yet immediately accessible, as we are all familiar with the rather strange themes presented. I'm talking more specifically about Neo dieing and being reborn (in the first film) as humanity's savior, it's not too hard to see what situation they're borrowing from so that they can be sure the plot is both powerful without seeming overly nonsensical (not that the bible isn't nonsensical, but of course most western Audiences are already quite familiar and accepting of the themes it presents).

I’d but their borrowing from the bible on par with the film Equilibrium’s borrowing from just about every popular novel about a dystrophic future which was ever written- it’s not a direct rip-off, but they use extremely similar themes and imagery which is powerful due to the audience’s pre-exposure to such concepts, and they don’t have to spend a hell of a lot of time explaining what exactly is going on. A nice little one-two punch with minimal setup.

Originally posted by wesmorris
Your assessment is indicative of a shallow look at the movie, not that the movie is shallow.

Oh no, well someone call the waambulence. Sorry, Wes but seeing all sorts of glorious symbols and philosophical ideas in the Matrix doesn't make you a smart person. The only reason that The Matrix is views as being a "Smart" movie by some is because it' largely an audience for young people who like kung-fu action movies, EI. their target audience has generally never had a philosophical thought in their heads before so it all seems rather new and exciting. If you think that I'm missing something big and important in my assessment of the film, then please feel free to give me your interpretation of the messages of deep spiritual significance that are clearly going over my head rather than trying to sound spurious and condescending in a single line of text.

/Oh no, well someone call the waambulence.

show me where I cried.

/Sorry, Wes but seeing all sorts of glorious symbols and philosophical ideas in the Matrix doesn't make you a smart person.

show me where I claimed to be smart because i see stuff in it. i'm just saying that the proclamation of the movie as shallow is in and of itself shallow. it should be so complicated as to induce an attack. i suppose it indicative of your character.

/The only reason that The Matrix is views as being a "Smart" movie by some is because it' largely an audience for young people who like kung-fu action movies, EI. their target audience has generally never had a philosophical thought in their heads before so it all seems rather new and exciting.

That is one way of looking at it, but that's not the only way to look at it. I submit that you've presented a completely shallow interpretation of what could go either way (if I ignore the cheese factor). Regardless you are just presenting an opinion about a piece of art, inherently to be interpreted in a myriad of ways and complained about it's shallowness, when in fact in comparison to most movies there are some interesting philosophical tidbits on free-will, epistemology and the nature of reality in general - of course depending on how you look at it.

/If you think that I'm missing something big and important in my assessment of the film, then please feel free to give me your interpretation of the messages of deep spiritual significance that are clearly going over my head rather than trying to sound spurious and condescending in a single line of text.

It can be quite though provoking, depending on the nature of the person watching it. You may have missed some things in your presumption that it is just a shallow pop-culture thing. That's fine and all, but to just snidely label it shallow, well that's fucking shallow and you know it - unless you're too shallow to know it, and then maybe you'll learn it or maybe you'll just bitch about me insisting that your assertions of shallowness were shallow. How fucking shallow. The deep thing would be to write a really confusing paragraph that just kind of trails off and resolves nothing.

Okay maybe not.

But your comments are still somewhat shallow. It happens, get over it. Be more profound later. Walk it off.

Originally posted by wesmorris

But your comments are still somewhat shallow. It happens, get over it. Be more profound later. Walk it off.

So the real power of the Matrtix is it's ability to incite it's fans to personal attacks against those who question it's intellectual depth?

Fine, I'm a shallow person, I'm not going to bother arguing over such a meaningless point, but what about the flim, where are it's subtle meanings and provocative implications? You said that it was more thought provoking than most movies, and I'm not sure I can agree with you there; not unless you compre it to other films of it's own genre, mindless action flics, in which case it does have a bit more going on, but that's not saying a hell of a lot.

Originally posted by Mystech
So the real power of the Matrtix is it's ability to incite it's fans to personal attacks against those who question it's intellectual depth?

Fine, I'm a shallow person

I wasn't at all implying that you're a shallow person, just that you were in a mood and calling something shallow in a shallow way. It happens. I figure you could read that from what I was saying you bastard. Calm yourself.

Is it a personal attack to call an argument shallow? I suppose it is if you can't say why but I did and I'm pretty sure it was valid. So it wasn't a personal attack, but an attack on the nature of your argument. Dig?

The Matrix is a metaphor for African Slavery:

Only if you think it is.

/There was a five minute African dance sequence!!!

Only if you think it was. There was dancing but to call it african is your choice, not the choice of the artists.


Did you read the article? http://www.missouri.edu/~egc8c7/Matrixpaper.doc
It's not just MY idea, I actually didn't notice it until other people pointed it out and I found enough sources on the internet.

How tolerant of you.

Don't take me for a 'tolerant' person. I enjoy what I enjoy, and if I didn't like Morpheus I would tell you so.

You say that as it if is significant. It is, but only in that it is telling of your inability to understand things.

The French food thing was a joke. Besides, only that one program 'eats' at the restraunt in Matrix Reloaded.


Though there really isn't any sort of direct theft from the bible, it is again applicable, and I believe that the Wachowskis (sp?) took a page here and there just to try to make the story more epic

The story is practically identicle to the New Testament.

/Did you read the article?

I don't read trash from missouri. (please don't check my location)

/http://www.missouri.edu/~egc8c7/Matrixpaper.doc

Metaphor is a load of shit.

/It's not just MY idea, I actually didn't notice it until other people pointed it out and I found enough sources on the internet.

Well blah so you latched onto someone else's idea to justify your bigoted ass. Hehe. Okay maybe not but you sure seem to say things in a manner that they can be easily taken the wrong way. It is a fair conclusion to reach that someone who repeatedly implies criticism based on race is somewhat concerned with race.

/Don't take me for a 'tolerant' person. I enjoy what I enjoy, and if I didn't like Morpheus I would tell you so.

You just seem that way when you say the equivalent of "well hell I talk to black people all the time". Know what i mean?

/The French food thing was a joke. Besides, only that one program 'eats' at the restraunt in Matrix Reloaded.

Pardon I didn't catch that you were joking. My bad.

/The story is practically identicle to the New Testament.

When has anyone told a new story? A whole shitload of stories could be justified the same way. Seems pretty eronious to associate it with the bible.

Here is some stuff on the Bible-Matrix connection I have dug up from various sources:


"Near the beginning of the film, Agent Smith drives up in an Audi with the license plate "IS 5416". This appears to be yet another Bible reference -- Isaiah Chapter 54, Verse 16 reads as follows: "Behold, I have created the SMITH that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy." (Capitals are for emphasis). "


"The hero, Thomas Anderson, is the Everyman who also has a dual identity under his hacker name, Neo (=new man). We later learn in the film that he is the chosen One (= the messiah). He dresses in a black duster, sort of a cross between the angels in "City of the Angels" and the mystical hero in all of Clint Eastwood's westerns.

Morpheus (= I will be what I will be) is the father image, the champion of Zion, leader of the rebel forces. He is determined to set his people free through the chosen one. Not only is he a father figure, he is also a forerunner to Neo, announcing his coming, in this way he is a type of John the Baptist.

Trinity is capable of supernatural fight and flight! If Morpheus can be the father/God image, and Neo the dual-nature/Son image, then Trinity is the Spirit. As her name implies, the three are inseparable. One for all and all for one. Trinity is also the name of the Terence Stamp character in his 1970s western series called Trinity, which is part of the modern mythology from which this picture borrows. Also, as a follower of Neo she serves as a Mary Magdalene type.

At the center of earth is their 'holy city,' Zion, which in the Bible is Jerusalem -the city of God. The rebel forces, called Zionist, defend Zion from the Matrix.

The two worlds, one visible and the other not, is a running theme throughout the Bible. In both Matrix and the Bible, dreams can connect a person to the other dimension.

The rebel ship is named after the biblical Nebuchadnezzar, the greatest and most powerful of all the Babylonian kings. His name means, "Nebo, protect the crown!" or the "frontiers." A perfect name for the rebel ship.

The term AI, means artificial intelligence. In the Bible Ai was the scene of Joshua’s defeat, and afterwards of his victory - in the film as well."

SOME GENERAL CONNECTIONS:
http://awesomehouse.com/matrix/parallels.html


ALSO:

"The Oracle is a Greek mythology-figure, so are Persephone and Morpheus. Osiris is the name of the Ancient Egyptian god of the underworld, Gnosis means insight knowledge, Logos means logic, The Hammer is a reference to the old norse God of thunders, Thors hammer…
There are also non-religious references. Neos room number in M1 is 101. That was the number on the door in George Orwells 1984, where people would be sent to be tortured and brainwashed into believing something that isn’t real. The white rabbit is from Alice in Wonderland, Merovingian was the name of an ancient line of French kings."

As for my issue with race, it has been brought up time and time again in this forum. I am a racial preservationist: http://www.racialcompact.com/

If you or anyone else considers that racist, I don't really care Ghassan and thefountainhed think I am a raging Nazi, but I know that I am not, so their opinion is invalid. I feel people are much too antsy in regards to race, as if mearly invoking a racial slur would strike a million men dead. To me the issue is a childish corruption of the human spirit, prompted by dogmatic maniacs. If one race is superior to another, so be it. If races don't exist, so be it.

Originally posted by and2000x

If you or anyone else considers that racist, I don't really care Ghassan and thefountainhed think I am a raging Nazi, but I know that I am not, so their opinion is invalid. .

Sorry to be your cloud in the blue sky, but technically if you think that there are seperate races than you are a racist. Obviously you think there are.

But who cares about Ghassan and the Hed anyway. I wouldn't want any of those 2 in my kitchen for a cup of tea. Not even when they bring cake.

The quesiton ultimately comes down to whether the wachowski brotehrs are trying to say something serious, or are merely writing somehting that reaches the maximum audience possible. In my opinion its the latter, and theyve succeeded, obviously. If they wanted to look like a far out artsy film, theyd have used Indian theology, theres loads of stories there, (possibly including a coming back fromthe dead, I cant remember.) Or perhaps Norse or Egyptian. Instead, theyve gone for Christian, and doen it in such a way that people can spend months looking for and spotting all the hints etc, such as car numberplates, that are likely just put there for afficionados etc. Kind of like a joke within a joke. But then I dont know for certain, anyone else up for kidnapping the two brothers (now theres a whole nuther can o worms.) and asking them?

na ja...maybe they are busy preparing the prequel to 'The Matrix', because that seems to be a 'hip' thing to do.

Just saw the movie and I was let down. Although it was a visual masterpeice, the plot was toilet paper thin. Every cliche line seemed like it was ripped out of another movie. How many times is someone about to die when they magically get the strength to get up and kick ass into oblivion? CLICHE! And the love scenes seemed fake and overdone.

My take: The Matrix should have ended after the first film.

you think that there are seperate races than you are a racist

Yes, this would qualify me as a 'racist'. However, I do not use that term since almost everyone associates it with hatred or racial supremacy. As for races not existing, your take is your own, and I will not argue because we couldn't come to a new conclusion in the other threads.

you know, And2000X, if all you said was that you wanted to preserve "white" culture, and had romantic notions with regards to the past, we'd all just let you be, since thats simply a matter of personal preference and as such isnt very threatening. But as soon as you try to justify said notions, thats where you get into trouble, because it invariably involves making claims upon everyone else, and using nonsensical ideas/ pseudoscience.

There's only one race........HUMAN. There could be other ALIEN races that aren't known of as yet also from other planets. There are ethnic differences in the humans.

Well, considering your wrong Guthrie, I will pay little attention to YOUR assumptions. You've been a good little sheep, obeying what the television told you by assuming I'm a hate mongering bigot. Good job. Next you must accept Jesus and buy 5 SUVs.

:mad: