What did you think of the film?

Please give your thoughts. It was based loosely on a true story.
Respectful theists/atheists welcome.


http://www.fotofetch.com/emilyrosepictures/emilyrose1.jpg
link to The real "Emily Rose' (http://www.fotofetch.com/)

I thought the story portrayed well many things that can be known about exorcism. There is no doubt that the girl upon which the story is based suffered greatly from scientifically unexplainable problems. The film brought out those distinctions well. It also showed the considerable difference between points of veiw and operational modes of bible christians as opposed to Catholics.

From your link:

(The psychiatrists, whom had been ordered to testify by the court, spoke about the "Doctrinaire Induction". They said that the priests had provided Anneliese with the contents of her psychotic behavior. Consequentially, they claimed, she later accepted her behavior as a form of demonic possession. They also offered that Anneliese's unsettled sexual development, along with her diagnosed Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, had influenced the psychosis.

The verdict was considered by many as not as harsh as they expected. Anneliese's parents, as well as the exorcists, were found guilty of manslaughter resulting from negligence and omitting first aid. They were sentenced to 6 months in jail and probation. The verdict included the opinion of the court that the accused should have helped by taking care of the medical treatment that the girl needed, but instead, their use of naive practices aggrivated Anneliese's already poor constitution.)

It just goes to show how religion beliefs can ruin a life. If these people would have done what was proper, send their doughter to a freaking hospital, perhaps they would have saved her life.

It seems that the secular powers were attempting to blame religious content for the bizarre experiences of Anneliese. They were forced into this position so as not to upset the secularist ideology. Psychology was used as an excuse to explain away what could not be explained. In its antipathy to true psychology, study of the soul, which is Catholic psychologia, modernist psychologists must blame the contents of religion itself. Materialist psychology has diverted from its source, Catholic investigation of the psyche, and, in order to mantain the shallow materialist system derived ultimately from Freud, the fail to accept spiritual explanations.

The profane university system which rewards only materialist liberal scholars is to blame for these outrages.

She was hallucinating, and it is her parents' and the priests' fault that she died. Some ritalin would've been a better choice.

for those that disagree with the methods used to "treat" the girl:

if this had happened in 1840, when the "hospital" was a cage in which she was kept as an animal to live in her own filth....would you still think the exorcism inhumane as opposed to the secular solution?

It is a fact that the exorcists killed her. I think this pretty much explains the whole thing.

The Devil Inside:

I would equate both fairly equally at that level.

It is a fact that the exorcists killed her. I think this pretty much explains the whole thing.

The Devil Inside:

I would equate both fairly equally at that level.
i pin the deaths on her parents, from what i have read. the exorcists had no legal rights over her if she were mentally ill. her parents are the ones that made the decision not to commit her to a hospital, not the priests.

I invite you to see the film, as a different perspective.

The film was biased to make people believe it was a real demon possession.

The girl had temporal lobe epilepsy.
You might look that up, if you're so inclined. It causes a great many interesting behaviors. Hallucinations. Religious hysteria. Many saints are now thought to have been temporal lobe epileptics.

The girl died from neglect. Criminal? It's hard to judge that one, after all, her parents might not have been temporal lobe epileptics, but they must have been a bit out of touch with reality. The problem with punishing the parents, of course, is that it did nothing but fulfill their martyr sense. First their little girl fights satan, and now they spend six months in the stripey hole fighting satan.

Everybody wins.

Yeehaw.

Pass around some wine and crackers. Exorcisms all around.



Annelise was a little cutie by the way. Wonder if she ever knew the 'pleasures of the flesh'? Well. Other than self-mutilation and the like, that is.

The film was biased to make people believe it was a real demon possession.

The girl had temporal lobe epilepsy. You might look that up, if you're so inclined. It causes a great many interesting behaviors. Hallucinations. Religious hysteria. Many saints are now thought to have been temporal lobe epileptics.

The girl died from neglect. Criminal? It's hard to judge that one, after all, her parents might not have been temporal lobe epileptics, but they must have been a bit out of touch with reality. The problem with punishing the parents, of course, is that it did nothing but fulfill their martyr sense. First their little girl fights satan, and now they spend six months in the stripey hole fighting satan.

Everybody wins.

Yeehaw.

Pass around some wine and crackers. Exorcisms all around.



Annelise was a little cutie by the way. Wonder if she ever knew the 'pleasures of the flesh'? Well. Other than self-mutilation and the like, that is.

**************
M*W: Throughout the history of humankind, women have always been seen as the sexual predator. My guess is that Annaliese was probably sexually active and the guilt overcame her. I didn't see the movie, but I heard radio talk shows dissing it. Satan is only a fig newton of the imagination. Only we have the power to destroy ourselves.

**************
M*W: Throughout the history of humankind, women have always been seen as the sexual predator. My guess is that Annaliese was probably sexually active and the guilt overcame her. I didn't see the movie, but I heard radio talk shows dissing it. Satan is only a fig newton of the imagination. Only we have the power to destroy ourselves.
this is the meaning of my username.

The film was biased to make people believe it was a real demon possession.
Art is able to say things that history or a simple presentation of mere facts cannot.

The girl had temporal lobe epilepsy.A hypothesis not heavily supported by the evidence.
You might look that up, if you're so inclined. It causes a great many interesting behaviors. Hallucinations. Religious hysteria. Many saints are now thought to have been temporal lobe epileptics. Rationalist explanations for the experiences of several billion people of many religions through the course of ages. Funny, when the uncounted numbers of tribal folk and animists and pagans experience these things such rationalist explanations are not resorted to.

The problem with punishing the parents, of course, is that it did nothing but fulfill their martyr sense. First their little girl fights satan, and now they spend six months in the stripey hole fighting satan. There is no evidence that she had punishing parents.


Annelise was a little cutie by the way. Wonder if she ever knew the 'pleasures of the flesh'? Well. Other than self-mutilation and the like, that is.Please dont lower yourself thus. Such thoughts need not be publicized. Display some manly honour. Speak not that way of the dead.

this is the meaning of my username.

*************
M*W: ...but I hope YOU are still in control!

Please dont lower yourself thus. Such thoughts need not be publicized. Display some manly honour. Speak not that way of the dead.

*************
M*W: What a prig!

Whoa, thats really standing up for womanhood there, MW. Surely your support of my chastizement of a chauvanist and abuser of females is evidence of your open-mindedness. Of course, it doesnt matter if the offender happens to be a non-christian, then you will support him no matter how he expresses himself.

perhaps you need to reconsider the real source of female oppression: the sex-satureated culture that want women just to become objects for use and abuse. Sure, the bumber-sticker that says "my body is not a temple, its an amusement park!" oh its real funny....

But you will not hear pagan and atheist males saying such things, will you? after all, thats is their hidden motive anyway. they will agree to your face with the lie of how christianity demeans the feminine, but lets tell the truth, they agree so that they can get what they want...

sex-satureated culture (sic)

I guess you haven't read the bible yet...

But you will not hear pagan and atheist males saying such things, will you? after all, thats is their hidden motive anyway. they will agree to your face with the lie of how christianity demeans the feminine, but lets tell the truth, they agree so that they can get what they want...

I don't think you can substantiate that claim. To my knowledge atheists are strongly in favour of equal rights for men and women, and against oppression of humans and animals.

*************
M*W: ...but I hope YOU are still in control!
as much in control as the rest of you lunatics!
:p

Whoa, thats really standing up for womanhood there, MW. Surely your support of my chastizement of a chauvanist and abuser of females is evidence of your open-mindedness. Of course, it doesnt matter if the offender happens to be a non-christian, then you will support him no matter how he expresses himself.

perhaps you need to reconsider the real source of female oppression: the sex-satureated culture that want women just to become objects for use and abuse. Sure, the bumber-sticker that says "my body is not a temple, its an amusement park!" oh its real funny....

But you will not hear pagan and atheist males saying such things, will you? after all, thats is their hidden motive anyway. they will agree to your face with the lie of how christianity demeans the feminine, but lets tell the truth, they agree so that they can get what they want...

*************
M*W: Of course, I support the feminine, and part of our human nature (both male and female) is our sexuality which is NOT evil. My remark about Annaliese's sexuality refers to the GUILT she may have had due to her religious upbringing and not because an act of sex.

Sexuality is a healthy thing. Have you never seen any asexual people? They are so lost in a world they don't understand, and they defy their own human nature.

Sex is not evil. Evil is only in the mind.

Extra-marital sex is morally wrong. Only marital sex has God's sanction.

What did you think of the film?

Please give your thoughts. It was based loosely on a true story.
Respectful theists/atheists welcome.


http://www.fotofetch.com/emilyrosepictures/emilyrose1.jpg
link to The real "Emily Rose' (http://www.fotofetch.com/)

I like the film; although, the special effects were a bit cheesy.

if this had happened in 1840, when the "hospital" was a cage in which she was kept as an animal to live in her own filth....would you still think the exorcism inhumane as opposed to the secular solution?Did it happen in 1840?

Did it happen in 1840?
doesnt matter.
it was a theoretical question, just as valid as any of the speculation of anyone that wasnt there and has an opinion.

Originally Posted by The Devil Inside
if this had happened in 1840, when the "hospital" was a cage in which she was kept as an animal to live in her own filth....would you still think the exorcism inhumane as opposed to the secular solution?
It depended on the country. Originally such asylums were catholic, and there would have been spiritual as well mental/physical treatments. priests would have been at hand to help the menbtally deranged. After the secularist materialist 'enlightenment" revolutions of the early 19th century however, the quality of care for the mentally deranged dropped considerably. Instead of being seen as "poor souls" to be cared for, they were now seen as a threat to the rational order and social engineering. They were seen as useless and unable to contribute to the general good. There was no need to care for them. It was not until later when christian scientists began to study the mentally deranged that they were treated with dignity.

During the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries hospital care of the sick of all kinds and nursing fell to the lowest ebb in history. Institutions and care for the insane, not only shared in this decadence, but were its worst feature. Because of this, many writers have declared that proper care for the insane and suitable institutions developed only in recent generations. As the Church had much to do with humanitarian efforts of all kinds in the past, it has been made a subject of reproach to her. As a matter of fact the Church, from the earliest times, arranged for the care of the insane, and some of the arrangements anticipated some of the most important advances in modern times. It was after the religious revolt in Germany, whose influence was felt in other countries, that the Church's charitable institutions suffered in many ways, and hospitals and asylums of all kinds deteriorated.

Among the Romans we have abundant evidence, in their laws, of care for the insane, but we know little of their medical treatment until about the beginning of the Christian Era. In the Twelve Tables curators are assigned the insane even after their majority. They could transact no business legally, but during lucid intervals could make binding contracts. When parents were insane, children could marry without their consent, but this had to be explicitly stated. The insane could make no wills, nor be witnesses of wills except during lucid intervals, but the lucidity had to be proved. With all these careful legal provisions it seems incredible that medical care should not have been given, but all records of it are wanting. At Rome, a series of writers on insanity made excellent studies in the subject, which could only have been made under circumstances that allowed of such careful study of the insane as we have opportunities for in modern times (Celcus, first century: Cælius Aurelianus, about A.D. 200, mostly a translation of Soranus; Alexander Trallianus, 560). Among the Greek writers, Hippocrates (about 400 B.C.), Asclepiades, who wrote shortly before Christ, as well as Aretæus of Cappadocia, Soranus, and Galen, who wrote in the first century after Christ, show a considerable knowledge of insanity. The great Roman student of the subject, however, was Paulus Ægineta (630), whose writings show such a thorough familiarity with certain phases of insanity as could only have been obtained by actual observation, not of a few patients, but of many.

With the beginning of Christianity more definite information as to asylums for the insane is available. Ducange, in his "Commentary on Byzantine History", states that among the thirty-five charitable institutions in Constantinople at the beginning of the fourth century there was a morotrophium, or home for lunatics. This seems to have been connected with the general hospital of the city. In the next century we have the records of a hospital for the insane at Jerusalem, and it is probable that they existed in other cities throughout the East. Nimesius, a Christian bishop of the fourth century, collected much of what had been written by older authors with regard to the insane, adding some observations of his own, and showing that Christianity was caring for these unfortunates. With the foundation of the monasteries the insane were cared for in connection with these. The Rule of St.Jerome enjoined the duty of making careful provision for the proper treatment of the sick, and Burdett, in his "Hospitals and Asylums of the World", considers that this applied also to those suffering from mental disease. He adds: "It is beyond question that in earlier times, commencing with provision for the sick, including those mentally ill, by the early bishops in their own houses, the Church gradually developed an organization which provided for the insane, first in morotrophia (i.e., places for lunatics) and then in the monasteries. Evidence of the existence of this system is to be met with in France, Italy, Russia, Spain, Germany, and in some of the northern countries of Europe" (op. cit., I). With the foundation of the monasteries of the Benedictines and the Irish monks, hospitals were opened in connection with them (see HOSPITALS). The insane were cared for with other patients in these institutions, and we have any prescriptions from the olden times that are supposed to be cures of lunacy. The cleric author of "Leechdom, Wortcunning and Star Craft of Early England", a collection of herbal prescriptions made about A.D. 900, gives remedies for melancholia, hallucinations, mental vacancy, dementia, and folly.

There are records of many institutions for the insane. Desmaisons declared that "the origin of the first establishment devoted for the insane in Europe dates back only to A.D. 1409; it was founded in Valencia in Spain under Mohammedan influence" (Des Asiles d'Aliénés en Espagene, Paris, 1859). This statement has been often quoted, but is entirely erroneous. We know for instance that there was an asylum exclusively for sufferers from mental diseases at Mets in 1100 and another at Elbing near Danzig in 1320. According to Sir William Dugdale (Monasticon Anglicanum, London, 1655-73), there was an ancient English asylum known as Berking Church Hospital, situated near the Tower of London, for which Robert Denton, chaplain, obtained a licence from King Edward III in 1371. Denton paid forty shillings for this licence to found a hospital in a house of his own in the parish of Berking Church, London, "for the poor priests and for the men and women in the sad city who suddenly fall into a frenzy and lose their memory, who were to reside there until cured; with an oratory to the said hospital to the invocation of the Blessed Virgin Mary". About this same time there is a tradition of the existence of a pazzarella, or place for mad people, in Rome, the conditions of entrance being rather interesting.

Lunatics were cared for, moreover, in special departments of general hospitals. At Bedlam, the London hospital founded in the thirteenth century, this was true. Evidently the same thing was true at many other places. At first glance this might seem open to many objections. Psychopaths in modern times, however, have been trying to arrange to have wards for acute mental cases in connection with general hospitals, for patients thus come under observation sooner; they are more willing to go to such hospitals and their friends are more ready to send them. Serious developments are often thus prevented. In this system of psychopathic wards in general hospitals of the Middle Ages anticipated our modern views. In another phase of the care of the insane there is a similar anticipation. At Gheel in Belgium the harmless insane are cared for by the people of the village and the neighbouring country who provide them with board, and treat them as members of the family. This system has attracted much attention in recent years, and articles on Gheel have appeared in every language. It has its defects, but these are probably not so great as those that are likely to occur in the institutional care of such patients. This method of caring for the insane has been practised at Gheel for over a thousand years. Originally the patients were brought to the shrine of St. Dympna, where, according to tradition, they were often healed. The custom of leaving chronic sufferers near the shrine, under the care of the villagers, gradually arose and has continued ever since. Nearly every country in Europe had such shrines where the insane were cured; we have records of them in Ireland, Scotland, England, and Germany, and it is evident that this must be considered an important portion of the provision for these patients. In France the shrines of Sts. Menou, or Menulphe, and Dizier were visited from very early times by the insane in search of relief. The shrine of St. Menou at Mailly-sur-Rose was especially well-known and a house was erected for the accommodation of the mentally diseased. At St. Dizier a state of affairs very like that at Gheel developed, and the patients were cared for by the families of the neighbourhood. All of this interesting and valuable provision for the care of the insane, as well as the monastic establishments in which they were received, disappeared with the Reformation.
Spain, though not the first country to organize special institutions for the insane, did more for them than perhaps any other country. The asylum at Valencia already mentioned was founded in 1409 by a monk named Joffre, out of pity for the lunatics whom he founded hooted by the crowds. The movement thus begun spread throughout Spain, and asylums were founded at Saragossa in 1425, at Seville in 1435, at Valladolid in 1436, and at Toledo before the end of the century. This movement was not due, as has been claimed, to Mohammedanism, for Mohammedans in other parts of the world took no special care of the insane. Lecky, in his "History of European Morals", has rejected the assertion of Desmaisons in this matter, which is entirely without proof. Spain continued to be the country in which lunatics were best cared for in Europe down to the beginning of the nineteenth century. Pinel, the great French psychiatrist, who took the manacles from the insane of France, declared Spain to be the country in which lunatics were treated with most wisdom and most humanity. He has described an asylum at Saragossa "open to the diseased in mind of all nations, governments, and religions, with this simple inscription: Urbis et Orbis (Traité Méd.-philos. sur l'aliénation mentale, Paris, 1809). He gives some details of the treatment, which show a very modern recognition of the need to be gentle and careful with the insane rather than harsh and forceful.

The pazzarella at Rome already mentioned was founded during the sixteenth century by Ferrantez Ruiz and the Bruni, father and son, all three Navarrese. This hospital for insane "received crazed persons of whatever nation they be, and care is taken to restore them to their right mind; but if the madness prove incurable, they are kept during life, have food and raiment necessary to the condition they are in. A Venetian lady was moved to such great pity of these poor creatures upon sight of them that on her death she left them heirs to her whole estate." This enabled the management, with the approbation of Pope Pius IV, to open a new house in 1561, in the Via Lata. In France and Italy the custom continued during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries of placing lunatics, particularly those of the better class - though also of the other classes when they had patrons who asked the privilege - in male or female monasteries according to their sex. This practice also prevailed in Russia. In 1641 the Charenton Asylum was founded in one of the suburbs of Paris, near the Park of Vincennes, and was placed under monastic rule. After the foundation of the Sisters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul, the charge of this institution was given to them. During this century the French established a system of colonies by which the insane were transferred to country places for work during intermissions in their condition, and were returned to the central asylum whenever they were restless.

During the eighteenth century there was an awakening of humanitarian purpose with regard to the insane in nearly every country in Europe. St. Peter's Hospital at Bristol, England, was opened in 1696; the Manchester Royal Lunatic Hospital in 1706; Bethel Hospital at Norwich in 1713; Dean Swift's Dublin Hospital in 1745; while the Pennsylvania Hospital of Philadelphia (1751) and the New York Hospital (1771) each contained wards for lunatics. In 1773 the first asylum exclusively for the care of the insane in the United States was opened at Williamsburg, VA. After this, asylums for the insane multiplied, though the system under which the inmates were cared for involved many abuses. Burdett's third chapter is entitled "The Period of Brutal Suppression in Treatment and Cruelty: 1750 to 1850".

In 1792 what has been called the humane period in the treatment of the insane began, when Pinel, against the advice of all those in authority and with the disapprobation of his medical colleagues, removed the chains and manacles and other severer forms of restraint at the great asylum of Bicêtre, near Paris, and gave the inmates all the liberty compatible with reasonable safety for themselves and others. At the same time William Tuke was engaged in establishing the retreat near York, which came into full operation in 1795. In this institution very enlightened principles of treatment were carried into effect. Early in the nineteenth century, Dr. Charles Worth and Mr. Gardner Hill, in the Lincoln Asylum, did away with all forms of mechanical restraint. The non-restraint system was fully developed by Dr. John Conolly in the Middlesex County Asylum at Hanwell. In the mean time, at the second institution solely for the insane in the United States, the Friends' Asylum at Frankfort, Pennsylvania (1817), the principles of gentle, intelligent care for the insane were being thoroughly applied and developed. The treatment of the insane was first systematized by Dr. S.B. Woodward, at Worcester, Massachusetts. Dr. Kirkbride of Philadelphia did much to remove the evils of restraint. Miss Dix must bear an honoured name for the successful philanthropy in doing away with many abuses in England and her native America. In recent years the care of the insane has to a great extent come entirely under the control of the State. This was apparently rendered necessary by the abuses that crept into private institutions for the insane. Even in the State institutions, however, until the last twenty-five years, there was many customs to be deprecated. Mechanical restraints of all kinds were used very commonly in America; within a generation patients were fastened to chairs, or to their beds, or secured by means of chains. The "open door" is, however, now becoming the policy of most institutions. Modes of restraint are very limited and used only with proper safeguard.

Most American institutions are overcrowded, because it seems impossible to increase accommodations in proportion to the increasing numbers of the insane. There are two reasons for this increase. One is an actual increase in the proportion of the insane to the total population because of the strenuous life. Another is that in our busy modern life there is less inclination to keep even the mildly insane at home. Apart from the State institutions, there is a reaction to the old monastic system of care for the insane, and there are many large and well-known insane asylums in America under the charge of religious. The tradition established by Madame Gras at the foundation of the Sisters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul has borne fruit. In America they have large asylums for the insane in Baltimore, New Orleans, Madison, N.J., and New York.

Extra-marital sex is morally wrong. Only marital sex has God's sanction.

Yes and by your logic so is masturbation , artificial insemination , contraception....


Back to the subject at hand. Anneliese Michel died from earthly causes. It has been documented that she suffered depression while taking psychotropic drugs. The symptoms she displayed even coincide with the side effects of Tegretol, a drug she was taking at the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel

The genuflection part of the originally posted link was pretty morbid. I have not read any evidence that suggests supernatural phenomena was occuring, while her afflictions are better answered with medical theories. What evidence supports a demon theory?

[QUOTE]Yes and by your logic so is masturbation , artificial insemination , contraception....
yah...so? no one is perfect. If you cant live up to the high standard, you keep trying and trust in Jesus. Whats so bad about that? You dont revolt and make it a way of life (as so many do today).

Back to the subject at hand. Anneliese Michel died from earthly causes. It has been documented that she suffered depression while taking psychotropic drugs. The symptoms she displayed even coincide with the side effects of Tegretol, a drug she was taking at the time.Just a theory. the Devil doesnt uses science to hide behind. Its obvious to reasonable discerners that she was possessed.

The genuflection part of the originally posted link was pretty morbid. I have not read any evidence that suggests supernatural phenomena was occuring, while her afflictions are better answered with medical theories. What evidence supports a demon theory?Why dont you see the film? You dont have to agree, but you may see things from a different point of view.

Extra-marital sex is morally wrong. Only marital sex has God's sanction.

*************
M*W: Marriage is a man-made law of ownership as in slavery. What millenium are you living in?

*************
M*W: Marriage is a man-made law of ownership as in slavery. What millenium are you living in?
Are you OK?
Please tell me that your just angry at your husband or ex-husband and dont really think that.

Why dont you see the film? You dont have to agree, but you may see things from a different point of view.

As I mentioned previously, the film was made from the point of view as if possession was the real answer to what happened to Emily Rose. All the perspectives were from a demonic and magical vantage point.

And then, at the end, it pretended to leave you guessing as to whether it was demonic or epilepsy. When, in fact, the movie set you up to believe in the demonic as opposed to the scientific.

The sad part is that most people are stupid enough to fall for the blatant manipulation by the directors and believe they came to their own conclusions based on objective and critical thinking.

Ha!

Idiots.



And I'd do Anneliese. I don't think there's anything wrong with sex. I like it. Sex is good. Sex with Anneliese would be very good. I like to think that if she'd had sex with me that she wouldn't have died.



Medicine Woman,

It's possible that she was sexually active and that the guilt played a part in the whole of her conidtion, but surely, if so, it would only be a small piece of the puzzle. Temporal Lobe Epilepsy would be the real answer. Although mention of the drug tygetrol is interesting.

The simple answer is that the answer is not simple.

But, it's simply not demonic possession.

I was not asking you.

Annaliese believed herself to be possessed.

Your hatred of christianity has twisted your reasoning powers.

Aww. I'd almost think you don't like me or something.

Watch out, that could be a crack for the demons to get in, Mr. Lawdog.

Boogedy boogedy.



I bet you haven't even thought about looking into Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, have you?
Sigh. Purposeful ignorance. What a fetching trait.
It's not as cute on you as it was on Anneliese though.

Are you OK?
Please tell me that your just angry at your husband or ex-husband and dont really think that.

*************
M*W: I "think that," because there is historical evidence to back it up.

Medicine Woman,

It's possible that she was sexually active and that the guilt played a part in the whole of her conidtion, but surely, if so, it would only be a small piece of the puzzle. Temporal Lobe Epilepsy would be the real answer. Although mention of the drug tygetrol is interesting.

The simple answer is that the answer is not simple.

But, it's simply not demonic possession.

*************
M*W: I looked at her picture again and it appears that she might have had a thyroid goiter, so endocrine issues could have been involved. Thyroid issues can also be the cause of mental disturbances.

Aww. I'd almost think you don't like me or something.

Watch out, that could be a crack for the demons to get in, Mr. Lawdog.

Boogedy boogedy.
You think that our ideas are primitive, but when the time comes, you also will resort to our "primitive" beliefs. There are no Atheists in foxholes.

I bet you haven't even thought about looking into Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, have you?
Sigh. Purposeful ignorance. What a fetching trait. No, because its a scientific rationalist explanation, which, however plausible in some cases, has no signifigance in a real possession. possession is just as viable an explanation.
How many temporal lobe epilepsy patients believed themselves to be possessed?
[/QUOTE]

*************
M*W: I looked at her picture again and it appears that she might have had a thyroid goiter, so endocrine issues could have been involved. Thyroid issues can also be the cause of mental disturbances.

Good observation, I didn't even notice that football in her neck.

...possession is just as viable an explanation...

I would disagree as the phenomenon doesn't appear to exist. I saw a 'real' televised exorcism in the 80's. Nothing super-natural happened... it looked more like some femal teenager just acting out the part... I almost died laughing when she said "My name is Minga" (speaking on behalf of one of the 'demons' possessing her). It was truly funny.

A Xian friend of mine contested that it was very real and there were points where she was talking in two 'voices' simultaneously. I watched the replay and that never happened. Belief does strange things to a believers processing of information.

The other photos of her do not suggest a goiter.

I would disagree as the phenomenon doesn't appear to exist. I saw a 'real' televised exorcism in the 80's. Nothing super-natural happened... it looked more like some femal teenager just acting out the part... I almost died laughing when she said "My name is Minga" (speaking on behalf of one of the 'demons' possessing her). It was truly funny.

A Xian friend of mine contested that it was very real and there were points where she was talking in two 'voices' simultaneously. I watched the replay and that never happened. Belief does strange things to a believers processing of information.
Well, the exorcism can have different displays. There are many documented violent exorcisms. Read the work of Fr. Gabriel Amorth, head exorcist of the Vatican.

I looked at her picture again and it appears that she might have had a thyroid goiter, so endocrine issues could have been involved. Thyroid issues can also be the cause of mental disturbances.

Actually, I noticed that too but thought perhaps it was a lighting artifact...

Hmm. Never done someone with a goiter. But, what the hey? Why not?



Lawdog,

You think that our ideas are primitive, but when the time comes, you also will resort to our "primitive" beliefs. There are no Atheists in foxholes.

That's something that I really hate about your religion, Lawdog. Blackmail is a disgusting thing. Especially from one's deity, yes?

Truisms aren't always true, by the way. I'd say that there are lots of atheists in foxholes. In fact, I'd say that there are a large number of atheists that came about from being in foxholes.

No, because its a scientific rationalist explanation, which, however plausible in some cases, has no signifigance in a real possession.

Ah. So, it doesn't have any significance in a real possession? And it is shown to be a real possession as opposed to a case of temporal lobe epilepsy with mitigating factors because... you want it to be?

How many temporal lobe epilepsy patients believed themselves to be possessed?

A good number. One of the symptoms of TLE is unbodily manifestations of some sort. You know, demonic faces and the like? Although, some would see the intruder as god or an angel rather than a demon, I suppose it all has to do with mitigating factors as to the exact interpretation of the seizure.

An interviw with the head exorcist of Rome:

Father Amorth smiles continually as he tells his story. His enthusiasm for his subject is infectious and engaging. "Jesus performed exorcisms. He cast out demons. He freed souls from demonic possession and from Him the Church has received the power and office of exorcism. A simple exorcism is performed at every baptism, but major exorcism can be performed only by a priest licensed by the bishop. I have performed over 50,000 exorcisms. Sometimes it takes a few minutes, sometimes many hours. It is hard work multo duro."

How does he recognise someone possessed by evil spirits? "It is not easy. There are many grades of possession. The Devil does not like to be seen, so there are people who are possessed who manage to conceal it. There are other cases where the person possessed is in acute physical pain, such agony that they cannot move.
"It is essential not to confuse demonic possession with ordinary illness. The symptoms of possession often include violent headaches and stomach cramps, but you must always go to the doctor before you go to the exorcist. I have people come to me who are not possessed at all. They are suffering from epilepsy or schizophrenia or other mental problems. Of the thousands of patients I have seen, only a hundred or so have been truly possessed."

"How can you tell?"

"By their aversion to the sacrament and all things sacred. If blessed they become furious. If confronted with the crucifix, they are subdued." "But couldn't an hysteric imitate the symptoms?"

"We can sort out the phoney ones. We look into their eyes. As part of the exorcism, at specific times during the prayers, holding two fingers on the patient's eyes we raise the eyelids. Almost always, in cases of evil presence, the eyes look completely white. Even with the help of both hands, we can barely discern whether the pupils are towards the top or the bottom of the eye. If the pupils are looking up, the demons in possession are scorpions. If looking down, they are serpents."

As I report this now, it sounds absurd. As Father Amorth told it to me, it felt entirely credible.

I had gone to Rome expecting - hoping, even - for a chilling encounter, but instead of a sinister bug-eyed obsessive lurking in the shadows of a Hammer Horror film set, here I was sitting in an airy room facing a kindly old man with an uncanny knack for making the truly bizarre seem wholly rational. He has God on his side and customers at his door. The demand for exorcism is growing as never before. Fifteen years ago there were 20 church-appointed exorcists in Italy. Now there are 300.

I ask Father Amorph to describe the ritual of exorcism.

"Ideally, the exorcist needs another priest to help him and a group nearby who will assist through prayer. The ritual does not specify the stance of the exorcist. Some stand, some sit. The ritual says only that, beginning with the words Ecce crucem Domini ('Behold the Cross of the Lord') the priest should touch the neck of the possessed one with the hem of his stole and hold his hand on his head. The demons will want to hide. Our task is to expose them, and then expel them. There are many ways to goad them into showing themselves. Although the ritual does not mention this, experience has taught us that using oil and holy water and salt can be very effective.

"Demons are wary of talking and must be forced to speak. When demons are voluntarily chatty it's a trick to distract the exorcist. We must never ask useless questions out of curiosity. We but must interrogate with care. We always begin by asking for the demon's name."

"And does he answer?" I ask. Father Amorth nods. "Yes, through the patient, but in a strange, unnatural voice. If it is the Devil himself, he says 'I am Satan, or Lucifer, or Beelzebub. We ask if he is alone or if there are others with him. Usually there are two or five, 20 or 30. We must quantify the number. We ask when and how they entered that particular body. We find out whether their presence is due to a spell and the specifics of that spell.

"During the exorcism the evil may emerge in slow stages or with sudden explosions. He does not want show himself. He will be angry and he is strong. During one exorcism I saw a child of 11 held down by four strong men. The child threw the men aside with ease. I was there when a boy of 10 lifted a huge, heavy table.

"Afterwards I felt the muscles in the boy's arms. He could not have done it on his own. He had the strength of the Devil inside him.

"No two cases are the same. Some patients have to be tied down on a bed. They spit. They vomit. At first the demon will try to demoralise the exorcist, then he will try to terrify him, saying, 'Tonight I'm going to put a serpent between your sheets. Tomorrow I'm going to eat your heart'."

I lean towards Father Amorth. "And are you sometimes frightened?" I ask. He looks incredulous. "Never. I have faith. I laugh at the demon and say to him, 'I've got the Madonna on my side. I am called Gabriel. Go fight the Archangel Gabriel if you will.' That usually shuts them up."

Now he leans towards me and taps my hand confidentially. "The secret is to find your demon's weak spot. Some demons cannot bear to have the Sign of the Cross traced with a stole on an aching part of the body; some cannot stand a puff of breath on the face; others resist with all their strength against blessing with holy water.

"Relief for the patient is always possible, but to completely rid a person of his demons can take many exorcisms over many years. For a demon to leave a body and go back to hell means to die forever and to lose any ability to molest people in the future. He expresses his desperation saying: 'I am dying, I am dying. You are killing me; you have won. All priests are murderers'."

How do people come to be possessed by demons in the first place? "I believe God sometimes singles out certain souls for a special test of spiritual endurance, but more often people lay themselves open to possession by dabbling with black magic. Some are entrapped by a satanic cult. Others are the victims of a curse."

I interrupt. "You mean like Yasser Arafat saying to Ehud Barak, 'Go to Hell' and meaning it?"

"No." Father Amorth gives me a withering look. "That is merely a sudden imprecation. It is very difficult to perform a curse. You need to be a priest of Satan to do it properly. Of course, just as you can hire a killer if you need one, you can hire a male witch to utter a curse on your behalf. Most witches are frauds, but I am afraid some authentic ones do exist."

Father Amorth shakes his head and sighs at the wickedness of the world. At the outset be has told me he is confident he will have an answer to all my questions, but he has a difficulty with the next one. "Why do many more women seem to become possessed than men?"

"Ah, that we do not know. They may be more vulnerable because, as a rule, more women than men are interested in the occult. Or it may be the Devil's way of getting at men, just as he got to Adam through Eve. What we do know is that the problem is getting worse. The Devil is gaining ground. We are living in an age when faith is diminishing. If you abandon God, the Devil will take his place.

"All faiths, all cultures, have exorcists, but only Christianity has the true force to exorcise through Christ's example and authority. We need many more exorcists, but the bishops won't appoint them. In many countries - Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Spain there are no Catholic exorcists. It is a scandal. In England there are more Anglican exorcists than Catholic ones."

Although the post of exorcist is an official diocesan appointment (there are about 300 attached to the various bishops throughout Italy) and Father Amorth is undisputably the best known in his field, there is some tension between Amorth and the modernising tendencies in the Church hierarchy.

Devil-hunting is not fashionable in senior church circles. The Catholic establishment is happier talking about "the spirit of evil" than evil spirits. The Vatican recently issued a new rite of exorcism which has not met with Father Amorth's approval. "They say we cannot perform an exorcism unless we know for certain that the Evil One is present. That is ridiculous. It is only through exorcism that the demons reveal themselves. An unnecessary exorcism never hurt anybody."

What does the Pope make of all this? "The Holy Father knows that the Devil is still alive and active in the world. He has performed exorcism. In 1982, he performed a solemn exorcism on a girl from Spoletto. She screamed and rolled on the floor. Those who saw it were very frightened. The Pope brought her temporary freedom.
"The other day, on September 6, at his weekly audience at St Peter's, a young woman from a village near Monza started to shriek as the Pope was about to bless her. She shouted obscenities at him in a strange voice. The Pope blessed her and brought her relief, but the Devil is still in her. She is exorcised each week in Milan and she is now coming to me once a month. It may take a long time to help her, but we must try. The work of the exorcists is to relieve suffering, to free souls from torment, to bring us closer to God."

Father Amorth has laughed and smiled a good deal during our three-hour discussion. He has pulled sundry rude faces to indicate his contempt for the pusillanimous bishops who have a monopoly on exorcism and refuse to license more practitioners. In his mouth it does not seem like mumbo-jumbo or hocus-pocus. He produces detailed case histories. He quotes scriptural chapter and verse to justify his actions. And he has a large following. His book, An Exorcist Tells his Story, has been reprinted in Italy 17 times.

Given his shining faith and scholarly approach, I hardly dare ask him whether he has seen the notorious 1973 horror film, The Exorcist. It turns out to be his favourite film. "Of course, the special effects are exaggerated. but it is a good film, and substantially exact, based on a respectable novel which mirrored a true story."

Hmm.

I have performed over 50,000 exorcisms.

Of the thousands of patients I have seen, only a hundred or so have been truly possessed.

Interesting.

Just a theory. the Devil doesnt uses science to hide behind. Its obvious to reasonable discerners that she was possessed.
Why dont you see the film? You dont have to agree, but you may see things from a different point of view.


Agreed it is a theory. There is a medical theory, with supported reasoning and evidence for such rationale. I'm asking what reasoning supports that a supernatural element was involved? I don't wish to watch the movie at the moment, so perhaps you can elighten me as to why demonic possession for Ms. Michel is more compelling?

Are you trying to say that the devil uses science to hide behind? I was a bit confused by your wording.

doesnt matter.
it was a theoretical question, just as valid as any of the speculation of anyone that wasn’t there and has an opinion.Well, I just naturally made the assumption (being an Atheist) that she was not possessed by a “Daemon” and that she should be given the best possible care that is available. If it was the year 1840 then perhaps the Church’s nunnery would be the best place but it was the year 2000 then a hospital’s mental ward under the care of a psychiatrist or psychologist may be more appropriate?

Well, the exorcism can have different displays. There are many documented violent exorcisms. Read the work of Fr. Gabriel Amorth, head exorcist of the Vatican.

It's about as useful as reading the Bible. The notion of 'demons', the 'devil', 'God', 'magic', 'psychic', 'soul', etc... all falls into the same category... fiction.

All anyone has to do to show otherwise is provide a single instance of any of these claims of existence... and since these claims have existed their corresponding evidence has not. Absence of evidence over long periods of time IS evidence of absence.

If it was the year 1840 then perhaps the Church’s nunnery would be the best place but it was the year 2000 then a hospital’s mental ward under the care of a psychiatrist or psychologist may be more appropriate?
the answer to your question depends on what is actually going on.